Pls Help :)

[Slinky]

Your sitting in the BB with AK sooted..This is an mtt with 798 entrants and only 19 left! you have 98,000 in chips which is a good sized stack the blinds are 2k 4k and it is a 10 seater table! Now its folded round to the button who raises 4x the BB the SB pushes allin for 62k... What would you do in my position (the BB with AK sooted)??? Call ? Fold? Allin too? :)

[Degen]

Depends on the buy-in of the tournament, the average stack at that time, and if you have seen this player raising a lot and especially if they raise a lot to 4x (that is unusual and could be a tell that its a monster). Also if the SB re-raises all in a lot or is very tight.

Unless I have seen him 4x many times and he raises lite, and I have seen the SB also 3-betting lite, I would fold this. If one or both of them are especially a tight player this is an instant fold. I think I would fold JJ also.

What to do with QQ is an interesting question. KK and AA you obviously stick it in.


Edit: I have just seen he raised on the Button. Still though that 4x raise scares me and with the shove. If the SB re-raises a lot you can go all in here and probably expect the button to fold, but but you have what looks like a good stack and very deep, probably best to wait for a better spot.

[Slinky]

I was moved tables not long before this hand so i didnt know the sb's play..but the person on the button was a loose aggressive player, i was thinking he's on the button, it could be a steal and the sb maybe had the monster or was stealing too lol the tourney buyin was 20$, the money was good and i'm not 1 for putting my tourney life on the line to a raise and a reraise but the positions had me using time bank!! Hmmmm what did i do :eek:

[Degen]

$20 buy-in level this deep in a large field you can assume they are probably competent players. The fact that the button is loose aggressive I think it negated by the fact that he threw a curveball by raising to 4x. Loose Aggressive players count on the fact that their big hands will be paid off because of their image, even more evidence that he could have a monster here.

I think you can safely flip a coin here and be reasonably comfortable either way, its not a gross error to shove or to fold, but I still lean toward a fold here.

Interesting situation.

[Slinky]

I have to say that i did infact fold ..

i thought it was a good fold..just wondered what others would do it that position :)

[Degen]

Two key things though are still missing. How much does the Button have behind and what is the average stack in the tournament.


If the situation were like this I think it is a clear all-in:


You have 90k, blinds 1/2k. Button has 50k and SB has 60k.


Button opens to 5k, SB re-raises to 15k.


Here I think you have a clear shove. You can expect both of them to fold everything except the very very top of their range.

The fact that in your hand you can never get anybody to fold is what makes me lean toward a fold. You will be forcing a showdown, possibly versus two opponents.

[Slinky]

The button had 45k and im not sure what average was sorry :(

[Slinky]

I think thats another key factor in this hand that the button put in the amount of chips that said hey i can still fold..or did he raise that much wanting the push?? Its sure left me thinking lol

[Slinky]

Oops sry WD i did it again lol :o

[Degen]

No worries. Just so everybody knows I think it is best when you post a hand to wait until the discussion is over or near over before you announce what the result of the hand was or what the other person had. So it wont spoil anybody's opinion or argument.

I think this is a very interesting spot and am interested to hear what others would do here. I also encourage other people to post their tricky hands in this forum. You'll get lots of free coaching from myself and mustardeggs that we might not have time for in the future when this site is bigger than Google :D

[Danielle Angel]

Hmmm, crazy situation. Knowing my loose and crazy style of play I would have risked it ALL with that hand !!!! It is in card set 1 (isn't it???) and suited. The pot odds appeared to have weighed in you favor and there was no chance of you being knocked out. Based on the push shove theory,your larger stack, the cards you were holding, the pot odds, the fact you could not be knocked out and you positioning I would have called. It all equates to being in your favor.

In saying this however, you had just moved to a new table so for all you knew the others could have been playing VERY tight before you came along. In addition if I was to put myself in the shoes of the button, with a stack like yours if I had decent cards I would have made a move just like his to make it look like the ultimate steal.

Hard to say what to do unless you are there in this situation. I would have put the button on small pockets or A/medium suited (such as 9)/KQ , many mediocre hands. Definitely the Small blind raged back at him like a bull so either he is suicidal, had been there a while and knew the button had been stealing or definitely had a GREAT hand !!!

Still I would have called as I could NOT have been knocked out BUT ..... I don't play tournaments that big and am not risking a large payout. I play smaller tournaments and for less money. Cant wait to see the results. I wonder how I read this hand hmmmmm :rolleyes:

[Slinky]

Hmmm, crazy situation. Knowing my loose and crazy style of play I would have risked it ALL with that hand !!!! It is in card set 1 (isn't it???) and suited. The pot odds appeared to have weighed in you favor and there was no chance of you being knocked out. Based on the push shove theory,your larger stack, the cards you were holding, the pot odds, the fact you could not be knocked out and you positioning I would have called. It all equates to being in your favor.

In saying this however, you had just moved to a new table so for all you knew the others could have been playing VERY tight before you came along. In addition if I was to put myself in the shoes of the button, with a stack like yours if I had decent cards I would have made a move just like his to make it look like the ultimate steal.

Hard to say what to do unless you are there in this situation. I would have put the button on small pockets or A/medium suited (such as 9)/KQ , many mediocre hands. Definitely the Small blind raged back at him like a bull so either he is suicidal, had been there a while and knew the button had been stealing or definitely had a GREAT hand !!!

Still I would have called as I could NOT have been knocked out BUT ..... I don't play tournaments that big and am not risking a large payout. I play smaller tournaments and for less money. Cant wait to see the results. I wonder how I read this hand hmmmmm :rolleyes:

If i called and lost my stack would've been left wounded..with blinds of 2/4k i would'nt have had much play left! Reguardless of what those 2 had i didnt really want to be risking 2/3 of my stack with possibly 2 others.. i think if the sb had folded i was always pushing here but with the reraise it was just not worth risking imo, but then again to win you have to take risks?? Hmmm i really am boogled at this one :confused:

[Danielle Angel]

I look at it both ways. If you had have not called and indeed had the superior hand you would be kicking yourself for eternity. I imagine you would have had pretty close to the best hand there.

Yes you would have been wounded if you lost that much of your stack and it really would have hurt at this stage of the tournament. You are never out until you are out though. Although you would have only had about 1/3 of your stack left there is still opportunity to come back with about 7 BB left (not much but there is). Keep in mind after a call like that and losing it shows you will go ALL the way with brilliant hands pre flop which gives you ample opportunity to thieve blinds if you lose. I know if I saw you lose after a call like that and was faced with a massive raise from you, I would indeed FOLD and let you have my blinds without a blink of an eye.

I am a little boggled as to what most people would do. Again me being me I would have called..... in fact I would have really put the pressure on the button and gone allin also (cant remember if the button had less chips then SB or not though so in saying that I would have to know first).

In summary, I definitely would have called if not thrown all my chips in like the SB and if I had lost the coin toss lol .... I would go on a thieving mission to bring myself back up to level. Not a great position to be in when you have a possible secure spot in the bubble though. Still where there is hope there is hope.

[mustardeggs]

Id for one shove here, simply because the button raised who is loose agressive. His range is super wide, raising to 4BB here isnt a reason to suspect a monster here i think. ANd the sb shoves, now if iam in sb shoes and have amonster why would I shove? Theres just too much bullshit in this hand going on to fold here:D

If this is like UTG opens 4BBs and the sb shoves i think then we can start to think about a fold.

fwiw I never seriously played mtts and nice to finally have some strategy going on in the strategy section ;)

[mustardeggs]

also there are still 9 players left , Id always go for the win instead of trying to find tight folds

[Slinky]

Can we always assume that the button and SB are trying to steal?? I'm a great believer of defending my blinds but at this stage for that amount to a reraise?

I dont understand why the risk?? I'm sure i'll get chances to extract their chips in better circumstances like when i know im ahead ;)

[mustardeggs]

This is not a deepstacked cashgame where you can wait for spots, you have to take your chances when they come along.

[Slinky]

Hmmm good point....But is that a chance or a fools call lol this debating is fun!!!

[mustardeggs]

Both ranges are are pretty wide. Yes sometimes one of the them will have you dominated but in a vacouum i think you have a profitbale push.

[Degen]

This is not a deepstacked cashgame where you can wait for spots, you have to take your chances when they come along.

What if the first raise was from Early Middle Position and the re-raise was one seat behind them. Would you still advocate taking a chance in this spot?

[mustardeggs]

As I said if the raise comes from EP and then someone pushes id think about a fold.

Iam not a great MTT player, I just thought that this spot, with a laggy player opening otB and the sb pushing is a really bad to find a bad fold.

[Degen]

if the raise comes from EP and then someone pushes its an instant fold.


FYP

[mustardeggs]

Okay I have to agree with ~WD~ , hes more experienced but he also said if its a standard raise otb he would shove AK in the BB.

[Degen]

Okay I have to agree with ~WD~ , hes more experienced but he also said if its a standard raise otb he would shove AK in the BB.

If its a standard button upon and then a standard SB raise (not a push) then yes I think its a clear shove. The key factor here is we have no FE (fold equity..we can't make anybody fold) and there is a high probability the Button has a real hand he is calling with as he opened to 4x.

If we know 100% that the button is calling this I think we have to fold. Far too often one of these would be true:

A) One of them has AA or KK
B) One of them has a pair and the other has an Ace or a King in their hand (reducing our odds of spiking) or worse, has the same hand

The only good outcome here is both of them have pairs QQ or less (or a very small chance of them both having weaker aces) but I think that happens a lot less than one of the above happening.


Edit: hmmm, anybody want to pokerstove B) above. I wonder if we should call if we can see their cards and one has AQ and the other has 88. I think its close but I'd like to see the stove on that.

[Slinky]

That was one of my thoughts that the SB had JJ or QQ .. a nice pocket pair but he wanted me out of the way hence the shove.. i think AA or KK would've wanted me in the hand but that shove was clearly a tell for me to get away IMO A race with AK vs QQ or JJ or any pp for that matter wasnt really necessary, i had plenty of play left with my stack and didnt feel the need to risk it .. on the other hand i was thinking at the stack i'd have if i called and won :confused:

[Danielle Angel]

Hmmm, nice points ~WD~, you clearly are talented !!! I am sure glad to be on here to take in your knowledge :D

I find it difficult to read hands etc if I am not playing them. . Of all the thoughts that came into my head the most obvious I missed "the outs". :o Seems I have now agreed on folding as the best play also. I will remember this forever :), what a great first discussion on a hand !!!

[LeBigMec]

The good thing about situations like these is that it is at worst a marginal mistake to fold or shove.
What I would do would probably depend on whether I felt comfortable enough to play the big stack well enough to avoid having to gamble too much to build chips.
I think it is +EV to shove here though, as I would expect the button to fold the vast majority of times, and the sb wouldnt often make that move with AA/KK.

[Slinky]

Maybe time to reveal the sad ending on this hand now lol The button had 1010 and the SB had JJ and if i had called i would've won but i thought it was a good fold!! The saddest part about that story is a few hands later i had AA and lost all my stack :eek::p

[Danielle Angel]

lol :) I read pretty well and. I think your decision to fold was a good one as admitted by me in the end. The thing I had just completely forgotten was the outs lol. In saying that, with that hand and knowing my play style I would have called and won :). I would have as you though gone all out with my AA a few hands later also :p. You were destined to lose that one slinky hehe :p