Small to Medium Pocket Pairs

[barbarella41]

Hi playrs,

I need advice on small to medium pocket pairs, because I hate them. ;)

How do you play them in tournament poker (so, mostly in a full-ring-game)?

How do you play them pre-flop against a raise? And what to do on the flop, where you almost always see overcards to your pair?

I read a lot of articles on that issue, and they always say try to see the flop for cheap and pray for the set :-).

I really would like to know how you handle these devilish pairs.:)

Barbarella

[Maestroelite]

Im not saying this is the right way to do it, im just gonna say how i play them, usually at least :rolleyes:

Please note its for tournaments as i rarely play cash.

Depending on position i either limp in or make a small raise preflop, if someone in front of me makes a substantial raise i fold my low pair, except in some situations where the table is shorthanded i might go all in and hope my opponent has AK (If he calls) or something like that and ofc dont hit his cards... Again this is situation depending, sometimes i fold, and sometimes you have a read on a guy and catch him with your low pair to take the pot.

Anyway, your question was pointed towards general play i guess, so as you say yourself, get a cheap flop and pay you hit your set, if you hit it you are usually ahead!

If only overcards hit the table you are either still ahead, or way behind, so here you could go for a semi bluff and raise, unless someone in front´of you raises then i would fold my hand...

Asuming you hit the set and there is A or K on the table as high card and someone has hit their high pair, then they almost never suspect that you are ahead with a set of 4s for example and you can get some good wins on that :D

I think the general rule is that you have to know that you are probably behind post flop if you dont hit it, but sometimes you are :p

Did it make sence? Im not even sure myself right now haha.

Edit: Dont overrate your low and medium pocket pairs, but dont underrate them either! If you are up against AK or KQ or the likes and is all in preflop, you are ahead until he hits one of his 6 outs (not counting flush/str8 draws or the possible 2 high pairs on the table).

[Blobbi-San]

Call a "cheap raise" if you're in late position to see the flop for a set.

[Danielle Angel]

Nice question :) I was almost going to make the same thread about a week ago :). I hate small to medium pocket pairs also !!!! They drive me nuts !! It will be interesting to see what everyone does. I think everyone is going to have a different opinion on how to play them.

I personally look at a few things, 1. positioning, 2. the amount of opponents in the pot (I find this very important as the more players the less likely they will hit as they are probably holding the majority of the A,K,J & 10's between them) and 3.the pre-flop raising.

I used to always call pre flop raises with my small to medium pockets regardless of how big the raises were :o ???? (nuts I know lol). Now I have started to fold small pocket pairs and now generally look at the amount of players in the pot and my positioning before even thinking about calling. If you ask me they are trouble !!! I have watched a lot of the pros going at it on television and they seem to fold small pockets in general also. As for medium pockets ...hmmmmmm I usually go for it when holding them still regardless of anything except the ALL IN bet :(. Maybe I will change my mind after a few more whippings though :(.

Imo you have to play the pockets as your gut tells you and the odds tell you then and there. In my experience from reading, listening the mathematics and playing there are really no rules or methods. You can call 99 to be beaten by a set of 8's when a 4 8 and 2 off suit flops and you think you are ahead :(. Very hard one !!!! Again interesting to see what everyone says :)

Calling a cheap raise is always a good method as stated above but in doing this know that almost all of the time you WILL be beaten on the flop so make sure you have the chip stack to waste before doing it ;)

[Maestroelite]

"You can call 99 to be beaten by a set of 8's when a 4 8 and 2 off suit flops and you think you are ahead"

Or you could be the guy/girl holding the pocket 4s or 8s and beat the one who think they are ahead with pocket 9s hehe

This is what makes it really interesting ;)

Im also looking forward to hearing from more people how they tend to play it...

[barbarella41]

Thanks for your points of view, really interesting and helpful.

I found this article on small and medium pocket pairs, I think a good summary
of all the important aspects concerning this subject.

http://www.pokertipsfromthepros.com/lesson108.htm

Barbarella :)

[Buldermar]

I believe you should always mix up your play, even with PP's.
Generally there is relatively few situations in which being aggresive preflop hurts you, but after the flop aggresiveness can get you into a world of trouble. I want to take a mathematical approach to why and when you should play your little/medium PP.

First off, basic math is that you get dealt a PP 1 of 17 times.
This PP only hit set 1 of 8 times on flop.

You goal is to:
- Give yourself the biggest chance to win the pot
- Win the most chips when you do so
- Or lose the fewest chips when losing the pot

Lets asume you have 44 on your hand. You are most likely facing overcards on the flop. If we asume that you are going to fold the hand unless you hit the flop, the amount of chips you have to call/put into the pot preflop may never exceed 1/8 of the total amount of chips you can win IF you hit your set. If it does exceed 1/8 of the total amount of chips you can win, you will have to either fold or push all-in. This is simple math which should always be taken into consideration.

Once the flop comes you have to think about what you accomplish by betting:
a) You get a better hand to fold
b) You get a worse hand to call (or raise)
c) You can protect the best hand against draws
If neither of these things can be accomplished by betting, you shouldn't bet at all.

You don't have to make an automatic continuationbet with 88 just because you raised preflop. If you can't acheive any of the 3 listed things by making a continuationbet, simply check/fold your hand. Say the flop is KsTs9d. What do you achieve by betting? If you are out of position, there is a huge range of hands your opponent might have. You are never getting called by worse hand than 88 so it obviously doesn't work as a value bet. You aren't protecting your hand: If a smaller pair calls he only got 2 outs, so it's either you or him having very few outs. The thing is: Very few pairs that got 88 beat would fold in this spot to a continuationbet.

My point:
preflop you have to just go with your instincts and your experience with the other players (and ofc. the math). Sometimes you have to fold JJ or even QQ preflop, sometimes the right move is to push all-in with 66, even after someone else have raised. Sometimes you might even want to fold small pocket pairs UTG because of factors like payout structure, chipstacks, other players style of playing etc... But you have to be careful not to lose too much money postflop once you miss. If you keep your loses to a minimum, the winnings when you hit your set might outweight them. =)

Enough for now

Buldermar

[Maestroelite]

Speaking of small pocket pairs, i just played a tourney where i folded pocket 6 and then pocket 2s.

The 6's would have gotten me str8 for the win, and the pair was even enough to have taken it home, and with the pocket 2's another 2 hit the flop and again i would have won it.

Minutes later i go all in with A-10 and get a call from 3-10 and what hits the flop? 3-10 and no help for me...

Is'nt it ironic?

[Danielle Angel]

Nicely written Buldermar :) I wish I had have gotten my point across like that :). You summed it all up like a pro, nicely said :). I have so much trouble trying to explain my point on here sometimes....thankgoodness for people like you :).

The same thing happens to me all the time Maestroelite :( It really sux !!! If only I could play donkey style continually like half the people I come across and win like they do ???? What's with that ??? They seem to donkey people who play properly out ALL the time. Sometimes I wish I didn't play so much by the book. The donkeys who win must get the "instinct and gut" thing happening and go for it :( ....:p to them !!!

[K1-DK]

The same thing happens to me all the time Maestroelite :( It really sux !!! If only I could play donkey style continually like half the people I come across and win like they do ???? What's with that ??? They seem to donkey people who play properly out ALL the time. Sometimes I wish I didn't play so much by the book. The donkeys who win must get the "instinct and gut" thing happening and go for it :( ....:p to them !!!

Actually there is not much difference between donk moves and loose style. The difference is knowing when to lay you hand down when you dont hit.....

So offcourse the "donkey style" can be profitable in times where luck is on your side.

a lot of loose players (im not normaly one, but training it sometimes) are trying to get into pots where the amount you can possible win is much higher than the amount you have to put into the pot. Buldermar is make a fine example with his math about when to go into the pot with medium PP, where he makes the argument that you have to be able to win atleast 8 times as much as you put in to make it profitable in the long run.
A loose player is not looking just looking at how many xBB he is putting in, but how much he can make if his 63o hit A 6 3 on the flop. The donk doesnt think that way, but it is very easy to mistake the two in the early part of a tournament

[K1-DK]

and by the way...

brilliant post buldermar

[Slinky]

Just my input on i-poker..The amount of times people reraise me with 44 is unreal! An example i had pocket Queens last night and raised a reraise and then this guy after me pushes allin.. the initial raiser folds and so i call after a bit of debating for him to turn over 44 :o imo that was a donkey move.. he put 60$ in a pot with 44 to a raise and reraise! Thats just [raying for luck factor, but as for the 44 i notice im called alot with it or pushed about lol it must be a "hitting" hand on that site .. but i sure would never would play the cards like that or any small to medium PP's.. i'll try to get in pots cheaply with them and if they hit they hit they dont they get binned :D

[Buldermar]

Nicely written Buldermar :) I wish I had have gotten my point across like that :). You summed it all up like a pro, nicely said :). I have so much trouble trying to explain my point on here sometimes....thankgoodness for people like you :).


Thanks a lot for all those nice words :). You got your point across just as good as I did. In fact my reply was inspired by yours, I just wanted to add some math to it. My english is extremely terrible so writing here seems to be a good way of improving it. ;)

[Slinky]

Your english is just fine Buldermar ;) As was your post :D

[Buldermar]

If fine means good enough to order a coffee, then yes :P

[Danielle Angel]

your english is very good, I thought it was your main language hehe :D. And thank you very much back :).
I hear what you are saying Slinky, same thing happens to me !! damn 44's and 33's blaaa