Could your poker get worse ?

[Danielle Angel]

I feel like I am on a downwards sliding scale. This is CRAZY !!!! I really need some motivation here guys. I started my poker career on play money tables a few years back hehe. I got to the stage where it was boring me, I was kicking asses :). I then deposited elsewhere and started off great. Beginners luck that start I think. Before long I was sliding down and had lost my WHOLE kitty. Soon I was re depositing.

I stayed at the same low level and finally started to make my way back up. The same thing however is happening AGAIN !!! Before I even have gotten back to square 1 I am on a roller coaster track downwards. SO much for my careful grinding. It is making me so frustrated. I stay at the same low level so its not because I am trying to be smart and move up.

Does anyone think after learning all the mathematics you can, playing as much as you can and reading and watching all you can you could actually get worse ? I really need a boost here before I give up, and I am sick to death of grinding my money away. Do you think I should go back backwards in order to go forwards ? Go back to the fun times and see how I won ? I am at WITS end !!!!!!:mad: How can I win a massive tournament and play awesome cash games bringing in a fair share each day to being a total screw up (almost crying here) :( Again, can our poker game get worse ? :confused:

[Froedo]

Everybody runs into those rollercoaster times. That's the reason im at the moment only play funmoney. I don't want to throw a whole bankrole away again. :(

But well. Next time i deposit ill do it on Titan :)

[Degen]

Does anyone think after learning all the mathematics you can, playing as much as you can and reading and watching all you can you could actually get worse ?

I don't think you can get worse by reading and studying but its possible to integrate things into your game in the wrong way or at the wrong times or to misunderstand something etc.

But yes as Froeso says, the game is a rollercoaster. Unless you have played 50,000+ hands you can't really attribute anything to factors other than luck. And even 50,000 hands is not much at all. But may players play 500 or 1,000 hands and win and think they are great. Then they play another 500 hands and lose and wonder what they are doing wrong. Well that is such a small sample size that it is impossible to attribute any of the swings in that stretch to much other than luck.

[Frydenholm1]

One thing for certain: You cant go back to the green table and expect to win if your head is filled up with !!!!:(:mad: and :confused:

Find something to create :D, relax, turn the computer on, relax even more (try some music) and play.
You have the knowledge and the experience, all you need now seems to be a little patience and an open mind. You can do it Danielle.

:):):)

[Danielle Angel]

Actually thats some good advice. I am always stressed, frustrated, mad, all the fun has gone. I am far from relaxed and happy. I am going to chill a little.

As for learning and using it in the wrong way, I think you are right WD. I over use it I think (I worked out last night). I seem very over superstitious at times also.

[barbarella41]

Danielle, same happened to me. Sometimes I got the feeling the more I read and try, my play gets worse.

Sometimes I got the feeling the longer I play, the less I understand the game.

But I thing it is as ~WD~ said one adopt the learned knowledge in a wrong way

[Frydenholm1]

but its possible to integrate things into your game in the wrong way or at the wrong times or to misunderstand something etc.


Quite right about that and another problem in the same line is the risk to think too much about integrating too much theoretical stuff at one time while sitting at the game. Try integrating small changes in your play from time to time.
Don't think you can sit down and decide "Today I'll play like this guy in this book". If you do so, you'll most likely think more about the book than about the cards and the other players.

Just like driving your car. If you decide that "Today I'll drive like Steve McQueen", you'll most likely end up in a hospitalbed.

(did I really write Steve McQueen ? Now you can really see how old I am :D)

[Danielle Angel]

lol @ Frydenholme :D Sometimes it takes a good joke like this to cheer people up and to set them on track :D. You are completely right WD, Barbarella and Fry. As for driving like Steve McQueen and being hospitalized :D .... I certainly don't do that in a car but maybe at the poker table :D, hense my suicide. :p I have determined that I am way to aggressive too. I thought I had kicked that habit, but it seems not. Back to the grinding, being more then careful of integrating learnt skills into the wrong places. AND most importantly not driving my mouse like I am Steve McQueen hehe :D

[Danielle Angel]

Here are 3 hands which I got smashed in. Do you think this is because I am driving my poker game like a sports racer still ? Or have I suffered the fate of bad luck ? I just dont know, maybe its both.

34

Hand 1 ...... Here I was next to this who raised my BB, there was no one else in the hand. He raises I re raise substantially. He caps I call. I lose :p

35

Hand 2 .... (The very NEXT hand) I flop a flush K high and push hard in case someone has an AH and hits another. Opponent CAPS, I call. I lose :p

36

Hand 3 ... I push hard pre flop, opponent calls. The flop comes down as you can see I think, I stop. I check, he caps I fold. Is this the only time I have made a smart move? Did I make a dumb ass move by folding. So many things running through my head over these hands.

Any advice appreciated. :o

[Slinky]

Well with out knowing all the betting patterns on these hands or knowing your opponants its hard to say but i do know for one the 1st hand is just ul..happens! Ak vs AA is nearly always going to battle! And the 3rd hand i'm never folding with one over card on the flop..Well to be honest i never checking my poc Q's to let him push me away!! Why would he cap it if he had the nutz or like? IMO bad fold!

2nd had is just pure ul..sb vs bb is sick but nothing more you couldve done there!

[Blobbi-San]

Hi Danielle. I can see that you have played on Full Tilt. When I'm playing on Full Tilt and ALL THINGS goes the wrong way and the bankroll down. Then I take a brake from the site, and concentrate my game on another site on the same level i.g. Titan. And here I built up the bankroll 10 times. I think you sometimes have to change, to get new challenges and be focused on the game in a new way. Maybe focus on one thing at the time, starting with which starting hands are you (mostly) playing. When it's ok you go for betting, against the position and so on. Split your play up in small parts and analyze them seperately. And do it on an another site - mayby.
Good luck, hope you'll be back in the sadle.

[Danielle Angel]

After all the bad that happened to me I managed to get my money back on quad 8's of all hands lol. I will endeavor to play some on Titan after I re deposit there :( .

I am thinking I should have attacked with the Q's Slinky, thinking you are right. I had already lost 2 hands and now I will never know if I played the Q's wrong :(

Does everyone else think the other 2 hands were just bad luck ? If soooo :D I have stopped my suicidal mission successfully and are no longer driving like McQueens hehe. Go me :) !!!!

[DoubleAcesDK]

Well its a nice post and some nice views presented in here.


Do knowing mathematical aspect make you a worse player?

Well tough question i gotta say yes and no. First of all i would say knowing the mathematical aspect of the game should make you a better player, especially vs those who have no clue about potodds, implied odds and positionplay. These day pretty much any player in some way knows about potodds however not many know about the implied odds factor which for those who dont know what it is, is the odds you can get if your opponent goes allin. Knowing all these things is an advantage as i said no doubt about that, but it can be used by your opponent to force you out of a pot, if he knows that your on a draw he can bet you out of any pot even though he might not have a made hand. This ofcourse gives the mathematical player a downside so you need to also be able to play the player and adjust your mathematical game to his/hers playstyle. How to adjust is a longer story, but if you play cashgame an essential thing is to make sure to make notes on each and everyone of your opponents both for you current session but also for future session. They can turn into gold if you actually use em in your gameplay vs the person you have notes on :)


Being Mentally ready to play


Well this is in my point of view the most essential part of being a winning pokerplayer, if you already before you start your session is halfway towards tilting then its pretty likely your not gonna win any money in the session your just about to play. The edge you should have as a good player by knowing your odds and having notes on your opponentes are gonna be ruined if you lose your hand and get angry at either yourself or the opponents and start doing fancy moves just to try and get back at your opponents og try to win back the money you lost. I think best way to keep on track of your mental play is to make sure your BRM is adequate so that you even if you lose a couple of buyins still know your in good shape and dont need to win back the amount you lost right away, but slowly and safely can build up your winnings and get out on top as a winning player. I would always recommend having atleast 30 buyins if your a cashgame player and maybe a bit more if your a sng player especially if you play turbo sngs where the varians is a bit higher

Well thats just my 2 cents on the topic :D
Ps. Dunno why i write 1 in both topics but hope you can live with it :D

[barbarella41]

Great post, DoubleAcesDK !

[Buldermar]

Well its a nice post and some nice views presented in here.


Do knowing mathematical aspect make you a worse player?

Well tough question i gotta say yes and no. First of all i would say knowing the mathematical aspect of the game should make you a better player, especially vs those who have no clue about potodds, implied odds and positionplay. These day pretty much any player in some way knows about potodds however not many know about the implied odds factor which for those who dont know what it is, is the odds you can get if your opponent goes allin. Knowing all these things is an advantage as i said no doubt about that, but it can be used by your opponent to force you out of a pot, if he knows that your on a draw he can bet you out of any pot even though he might not have a made hand. This ofcourse gives the mathematical player a downside so you need to also be able to play the player and adjust your mathematical game to his/hers playstyle. How to adjust is a longer story, but if you play cashgame an essential thing is to make sure to make notes on each and everyone of your opponents both for you current session but also for future session. They can turn into gold if you actually use em in your gameplay vs the person you have notes on :)


Being Mentally ready to play


Well this is in my point of view the most essential part of being a winning pokerplayer, if you already before you start your session is halfway towards tilting then its pretty likely your not gonna win any money in the session your just about to play. The edge you should have as a good player by knowing your odds and having notes on your opponentes are gonna be ruined if you lose your hand and get angry at either yourself or the opponents and start doing fancy moves just to try and get back at your opponents og try to win back the money you lost. I think best way to keep on track of your mental play is to make sure your BRM is adequate so that you even if you lose a couple of buyins still know your in good shape and dont need to win back the amount you lost right away, but slowly and safely can build up your winnings and get out on top as a winning player. I would always recommend having atleast 30 buyins if your a cashgame player and maybe a bit more if your a sng player especially if you play turbo sngs where the varians is a bit higher

Well thats just my 2 cents on the topic :D
Ps. Dunno why i write 1 in both topics but hope you can live with it :D

First of all: Great post! I enjoyed reading it.

I actually thought implied pot odds ment you include the value you expect to get from your hand if you hit. For instance if I got a flush draw and someone bet pot size, normally I should fold because I only got like 1/5 to hit on the turn. But I expect him to bet the turn and call a mediumsized river bet so I call for implied pot odds? Or have I misunderstood the concept of implied pot odds?

I'm not sure I understand how a mathematical player can be forced out of a pot if he thinks he got odds/implied odds to call, but I think you understand your point: Math is a tool you can use to improve your game, not something you base your game on? You of all should know that I sometime base my game a little too much on math :P I think you can actually become too predictable if you don't remember to mix it up and play hands/do stuff that you normally wouldn't.

I entirely agree that taking player notes is gold worth, especially when you're playing medium stakes such as 2$/4$ cash etc. and ofc. when you're playing higher stakes. I think PO is great for cashgame whilst SharkScopeHud works well for SNG's. On top of that, personal notes like: "Donk - pushed UTG 8handed for 11BB's w/ QJoff" can really refresh your mind. Sometimes I don't only remember the exact hand, I also remember how aggresive the player is in general and how he played other hands just by reading a note i once made.

I love what you say in the "Being mentally ready to play" part. This is perhaps one of my biggest problems. I often try to justify my play even when it's obviously terrible. Recently I have started to think through every hand I just played to try and realize if I could have done something differently and perhaps saved myself some chips or won some more. Of cause, a bluff that goes wrong can still be a correct and good bluff. It's not like you played your hand bad everytime you bluff and get caught, luck always plays a role. Still, being open-minded really helps you improving your game. If you got a feeling that you are playing too many hands because of some badbeats, take a break or play some freerolls :D

I'm not a big fan of the "win back the lost" concept. I think you should focus on how you played instead of focusing on whether you lost or won money. Start being happy when you lose but played your A+ game and unhappy when you won but did something stupid and sucked out. That, I believe, will truely improve your game.

[Frydenholm1]

I'm not a big fan of the "win back the lost" concept. I think you should focus on how you played instead of focusing on whether you lost or won money.

You're perfectly right there Buldermar. Its a lousy concept that takes away focus from your play.

Math also can take away focus - but I'm not saying math is a bad thing. Never. Knowing your math is essential for succes in poker, but thinking about math while you play is not that great.
Math - just like any other theoretical element - should be in the back of your head and be used subconsciously.
If you think of how to balance at your bicykel while driving, you'll shure fall. Same thing about poker

[Danielle Angel]

Just so you guys know, I was not trying to win back, I usually quit when losing not try and win back ;). I just posted that I had thankfully won it back in happiness hehe :) :) :)

[Buldermar]

My comment wasn't ment to be a reply to your statement, Danielle. :P

Frydenholm1: Some of my good poker friends that I respect a lot have pointed out that math plays a bigger role when you're playing cashgame than when you're playing a tournament, and I tend to agree. When you're playing a tournament you can't just call off 1/3 of your stack because you're getting 2 to 1 after being reraised preflop. If you lose 1/3 of your stack it means you are winning less next time you're you're all-in preflop with the better hand. If you lose 1/3 of your stack playing cashgame you can just reload and you're still getting full value from your flopped set or w/e next hand.

However, math still plays a big role when you're playing tournaments. You just have to use it differently, IMO.

[DoubleAcesDK]

Your right about implied odds bulder was what i was trying to explain just didnt come out to well :D and goddamn dude you write half books when you write lol but ohwell a good read :D

And i agree partly ont he tournament thing, ofcourse you cant just act in accordance to your odds you also have to think about stacksize in relation to your ability to raise other people out of pots. Cause if you dont have a decent stack people will often have odds to call your raises when you try to push them of a hand and thats not always good if your on a total bluff :eek:

[Buldermar]

Exactly. Your last point is worth gold. There is no value in pushing all-in for 900 with 23o when BB is 300 because BB will have to call with any two cards. But if you have 1400 left it suddently makes sense to push with that hand. :D

[Wonderjet]

I know what you are talking about. What I do, is I put on my favourite movie in the background, in my case, we are talking The Lord of The Rings. Than I play some very low limit poker and suddenly everthings good again. :)

[mustardeggs]

Danielle, if you leanr and study the game CONSTANTLY you cant get worse but its easy to missapply concepts you only understand to 50%. Like people see something on TV and copy it thinking that its a great play but dont understand how and why this was a great play and how it should be used.

This happens all the time in poker. Almost everybody thinks they are great while in reality they arent.

You should learn and think about the game constantly and never stop to learn, thats the only way to GET and STAY ahead of the competition. Even if you won yesterday you might loose today because your opponents adapted but you didnt. This can happen in a matter of minutes and you might have lost your edge because your opponent adapted.

To see where you exact propblems are you should post lots of hands you played and review your play honestly and carefully. This is the best way to learn and to pick up usefull advice.

[Matti Doogs]

Hey Danielle, Just looking at the hands, in the second hand i wonder what the pre flop betting was as I imagine there may have been a raise as he would have been last to act pre flop, or did he limp in and hope for luck. If he limped in and caught you then that sucks pretty bad, if there was a raise preflop I wonder what you were still doing there? The first hand was just harsh you are going to race that one every time so bad luck on that one coming up on bullets, in the third hand I think I have to agree with Slinky you made the move preflop you possibly should have placed a continuation bet to show you were still strong, if he had a big K you would likely find out soon enough but for him to cap the flop was prob an overbet to shake you off, guess you will never know.

[Frydenholm1]

...dont understand how and why this was a great play and how it should be used...

A very important point Mustardeggs.

Not least the importance of position seems often to be forgotten or neglected - know that because I make that mistake myself from time to time (not neglecting, but forgetting) ;)