Outs and all those ODD things...

[ZOMBIE]

Hi, again.
Something else:
I take, most of the times, position, pot odds, outs (sometimes feels like I'm in Math lesson) into account, but I still see other players drawing to a flush, straight, when it's clear they're up against overwhelming odds. When I tell them about the possible outs and all that, all they come up is: I play according to the cards I get. Counting all the possibilities is too much work. This is poker, not Math...
What gets to me is that, despite everything and a total disregard for the obvious calculations, they win (not always, must be said).
Somebody please tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Thank you.

[beaver808]

IT happens in the pub ALL the time. There's a free league where anybody can play and you get a real mix of experience in there. Last night I was trying to explain odds and outs during a hand and explain my betting as I did so.

I was big blind and I had Q:heart: 10:heart:

Flop was J:heart: 3:heart: Q:club:

I raised to 3xBB (forget all standard raising/bluffing/slowplay and any normal method of play... you'll see why in a minute)

Everyone apart from 2 of the newer players called, lovely lads but infuriatingly lucky and will call EVERYTHING with ANY 2 cards.

TURN 9:spade:

So I have top pair, a flush draw, a straight draw and am feeling quite optimistic as you would in this situation...

Any of the following cards are good for me on the river (taking into account their betting patterns):

A:heart: 2:heart: 4:heart: 5:heart: 6:heart: 7:heart: 8:heart: 9:heart: K:heart:
K:club: J:club: 10:club: 8:club: 3:club:
K:spade: Q:spade: J:spade: 10:spade: 8:spade: 3:spade:
K:diamond: Q:diamond: J:diamond: 10:diamond: 9:diamond: 8:diamond: 3:diamond:

They check as usual and I bet 6xBB and tell them exactly what I have and they should take that into account before betting... they both call.

RIVER: 2:spade: (damn!)

So they now know that I've got top pair... check check check

Anybody care to guess what they had???

[Mlubin]

q 2 or 22 probably

[ZOMBIE]

Thank you very much. I just feel like jumping over the table and shout right at their face:
LEARN HOW TO FOLD, YOU TWAT!!! Thing is, as soon as they see a face card, they think they're automatically holding the nuts.
For example, holding and slow-playing "the bullets" at our table, has proven disastrous (although I never EVER slow-play them, furthermore, one more reason to be hyper aggressive, especially pre-flop) but what do these guys do? Yep, you guessed it.
It happens once, twice, ... They just don't get it. They just assume they can't get beaten with this hand.
We like to change games (Hold'Em is usually the most played among us) so we decided to play some Omaha.
Only three players (out of seven at our table) remain. I get QQxx(I can't remember what the other two were).
I started by re-raising the BB (at that point 400/800). The guy on my left (SB) folds. The BB calls.
Flop: Q-3-3. Raised 2000. BB calls.
Turn: 2 (can't remember the suit, but altogether was a rainbow on the board). Raised another 2000. BB calls.
River: 10.
Ok, no possiblities of straights, flushes, and very unlikelly he was holding anything higher than a fullhouse so, being sure I was holding the winning hand, I raised 4000. BB calls.
I showed my fullboat. He showed 10 high. 10 bleeding high!!!
I was speechless, as you can imagine.

[beaver808]

q 2 or 22 probably

Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner.... one of them had 22. I was at the bar ordering a stiff drink within 7 seconds of him turning them over. I try my best to help but it just seems to fall on deaf ears...

[ZOMBIE]

When you said 2s (damn)! I just knew this "poker player" had the ducks.
Mind you, he might've known what was coming (future teller or something).
I know this might sound i bit harsh, but this kind of "playrs" should be banned.

[beaver808]

When you said 2s (damn)! I just knew this "poker player" had the ducks.
Mind you, he might've known what was coming (future teller or something).
I know this might sound i bit harsh, but this kind of "playrs" should be banned.

Where do you usually play? I've found that it happens a lot when playing amongst friends, some of whom don't play very often but know what a good hand is. They're always the ones getting lucky on rivers because the rest of us get out of the pot before it gets that far.

I have found that on-line it's less common but definitely still happens on quite a regular basis.

The place where I've found the best poker is played is in the local Casino, it's not great but you find that when people are paying *$50-$60 to sit down at the table they tend to rely far less on luck...

Mustard, Buldermar, Mlubin, WD Slinky and all the others have been around far far longer than I have and can probably tell you a lot more from their experience but that's what I've found in a relatively short space of time..


*(Ok Slinky, it was a £20 re-buy but I'm working in dollars as usual :) )

[mustardeggs]

you are not doing anything wrong, you just dont know what variance really means. Even if a uy draws to a flushdraw he flopped 3 times in a row and gets there 3 times in a row this doesnt mean something is wrong. If you flip a coin it wqill not always be head/tails you wull sometims get heads 5 times in a row or more. I know because I did flip up to 1K$ per flip so turst me on that. Hope this helps

[ZOMBIE]

beaver808 and mustardeggs, thnx a lot. Yes, I play with some expats.
They all know, or at least, they should by now, that I hardly enter a pot without something. They still call me, most of the times with rags. I wonder if these guys know we're playing poker, which gives me more reasons to play tight/aggressive.
Thanks a lot, guys. Appreciate it.