Floating the turn to bluff raise the river?

[Degen]

Spew or ownage?

This is at the final table of the 25 person $10 League Tournament tonight vs ReneK77

Poker Stars $10+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t100/t200 Blinds + t25 - 6 players - View hand 77146 (http://www.thehandconverter.com/hands/77146)
ThePlayr.com (http://www.theplayr.com/) Official Hand Converter

BB: t1672 M = 3.72
UTG: t13603 M = 30.23
MP: t6393 M = 14.21
CO: t3657 M = 8.13
Hero (BTN): t10112 M = 22.47
SB: t3563 M = 7.92

Pre Flop: (t450) Hero is BTN with J:club: K:club:
UTG raises to t600, 2 folds, Hero calls t600, 2 folds

Flop: (t1650) 7:diamond: 8:heart: A:heart: (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t1650) 2:diamond: (2 players)
UTG bets t800, Hero calls t800

River: (t3250) 6:club: (2 players)
UTG bets t1400, Hero raises to t4225, UTG tanks....

Final Pot: t6050
Hero wins t6050

[ReneK7]

*SPOILER*










You are a very though opponent and good player WD, I´ve got tons of respect for you. Unfortunately that clouds my judgement alot and you always leave me confused one way or the other. Seem´s everytime I go for it you actually have a hand and vice versa. RESPECT!! :cool:

what did I fold in this hand any guess?

[mustardeggs]

Iam no expert but id think this is an expert play. The whole hand looks weird though and if I were villain id call with anything id valuebet on that river. Why not bet the flop wd ?

[mustardeggs]

maybe my judgement is clouded though because of spoilers

[Degen]

Rene,

I think you clearly had a weakish Ace you were trying to take me to value town on the river with. Possibly a hand like TT or JJ that you were value betting really thin (which you should not do versus an unpredictable player-best to just check/call if you think you have the best hand-let them bluff and avoid situations like this.

Mustard,

You can only call that raise with the non-nuts if you are playing vs somebody who is capable of bluff-raising this river. In an MTT, not that many people are. VS most opponents I would only call with sets + here and maybe even fold some sets.

I thought about betting the flop but Rene is a pretty aggro opponent and check/raised me twice in one hand after I called his raise PF. I thought I'd get C/R on this flop a huge % of the time.

[mustardeggs]

Ok with that history your flop check is good. However I dont get your call turn bluffraise river line then if you think he is trying to checkraise you with a strong hand and when he valuebets the river not many people can fold an ace there and not many people would bet JJ-KK there. In general i think most playrs arent able to fold and ive def seen some kamikaze calls in the tourneys so in general i think it could turn out a loosing play vs most playrs.

In this hand looks to me like you had a great sense of what was going on and you had a read and history with rene and acted accordingly which I love. Thats why you won this hand.

You can only call that raise with the non-nuts if you are playing vs somebody who is capable of bluff-raising this river. In an MTT, not that many people are. VS most opponents I would only call with sets + here and maybe even fold some sets.

Youre right, you can only call if your opponents is capable fo bluffraising and most playrs never do it, however if you play a good and tricky playr id def call this sometimes depending on how the playr views me. It also depends on what you think of me and what you think i think of you so you cant judge the play in itself because it depends on a couple of variables.

Youre are a great mtt playr with a lot of knowledge and experience which Iam not so you certainly know what you are talking about. What made me say id call here was because of what ive seen of you in the tourneys you were always looking for making some tricky plays and getting agressive, also making some crazy calls so id def be tempted to call that river vs you why against most not to say all other playrs id cry and fold.

Id like to know if you would considered the same play against me.

[ReneK7]

Believe me I definately badly wanted to call this hand also in consideration who I was up againts. If I have had the ace Im quite sure i´d make the call with out too much consideration (spray and pray). One of my biggest weaknesses in poker is that I haven´t trained much in guessing what kind of hand range my opponents could have. That makes it harder for me to go through the hand once again when I face these kind of situations in the very limited consideration time online poker offers.

Looking back in the way the hand was played some things doesn´t make sence to me. What I feared the most in this hand was clearly the Ace, I didn´t really consider any other hands tbh. I might have if it wasn´t you I'd played that hand against (as mustard says you do some crazy moves). When I review the hand again you cleary didn´t have the ace (no flop/turn bet giving free cards on a connected board) which was what I feared. Based on that knowledge and what I thought about you, I should have called. Ofcourse it's always easy to look back and say now I know what you had.

I'm a tournament player and I have a lot of experience with low fee tourneys and feel I control most opponents in that limit range. That makes me a little locked in the way I play as I "know" I can control most people I play against (on the lower stake tourneys). I have very little experience with pro tourney players like you WD and it fascinates me to see how much more my game can improve and that I have a lot to learn if I ever should move up in the higher stakes.

TT was the right answer :) Thanx for the advice you are very right about that I should just check/call. I got locked in predictable play-mode, and followed my habits. I cleary feared a reraise and made a weak bet on that occation and got punished for it.

As for the check-raise, check raise hand I really did have a 3 ;)

[Degen]

Id like to know if you would considered the same play against me.

I would have bet the flop or folded the turn vs you. I think your approach to that situation would be a lot different and you might make some crazy call with 4th pair if you thought my line didn't make sense. I didn't think Rene would be as likely to make a big hero call (or at least wasn't likely to do so last week-next week everybody is going to call me down with bottom pair lol)

[mustardeggs]

I think the value of possibly owning you makes me even more likely to call